Update 1/30/2007 - Thanks to Todd Cochrane and Geek News Central for picking up on this story and talking about it on the podcast. Here's a link to the spot that he discusses it - LINK>>
My son just left for college in January. When DirectTV offered us $99 DVR's last year each of my kids got one. Now that he's away we started to investigate how he could record television from his college dorm room. Let me just say that neither of my kids is a TV addict. (I wish I could say the same for myself) They each watch one or two favorite shows, a movie now and then and for my son various sporting events and an occasional pay per view.
Since he just got a new laptop with Windows Media Center, the first option we investigated was purchasing a TV tuner card and using the laptop as a DVR. There are a couple of problems with that option; 1) The cards that actually work with media center are $125-$150 dollars. I tried getting a simple USB tuner that was on sale for $40 with a $20 rebate. It would work fine with it's own DVR software, (which was awful) but Media Center would not recognize it. 2) Since two people share a college dorm room, you need to start splitting cable wires, running one to the computer, and one to the TV. What a pain. 3) The recordings take up a lot of disk space, and it does tie up your laptop while recording, so you can't really do to much on it.
I had heard of the Slingbox over a year ago, and it sounded like a great techie toy, but I really couldn't see a real need for it. Suddenly the perfect reason to own a Slingbox had just presented itself. Considering that my daughter will be heading to college next year, the investment in a Slingbox now seemed to make a lot of sense.
For those of you that don't know what the Slingbox does, it's pretty simple; the box connects to the output of your DVR and also connects to your home network. You install software on your laptop, or any remote computer and using a unique ID number that is provided, you can remotely connect to your DVR from anywhere on the Internet. The local software application is customized for your specific television provider and receiver model number. It displays your remote control on the screen. Using an IR blaster whatever buttons you press on the application remote control are relayed to the Slingbox.
I convinced myself that this was the way to go and headed out to make the purchase. I picked up the Slingbox AV at Circuit City and headed home to install it. The installation was a breeze. Plug it in, connect a few video wires and a network cable, (I already had a cable run to my sons room) and presto you're up and running. I installed the software on my laptop which was on the network connected over wi-fi. It immediately found the box and initiated the setup routine. Within 15 minutes I was watching the TV on my laptop over a wi-fi connection and the quality was amazing. At least as good as what you would get recording the show locally through a TV tuner card.
So far everything was fine, but (cue ominous music) now we tried connecting to it from the college dorm 250 miles away. The video was very choppy and broken up. I checked the Slingbox site and they mention that the Slingbox needs at least 256 Kbps upload speeds on the network that it is sending from. I didn't think that would be the problem. My provider is Cablevision and they advertise 2 Mbps upload speeds. So I head on over to Speakeasy to run some network speed tests and to my amazement, I'm getting 10+ Mbps download but only 128 Kbps upload speeds.
I will spare you the details of the two calls that I made and the 2+ hours I spent on the phone with Cablevision support. They tried to blame everything else but themselves. It was my router, my computer memory, my firewall software, my cable wire..... One by one we tested and eliminated each of them as a possibility. Finally the second technician told me to bring my modem in to the service center and get a new one. Sure enough when I got home and plugged it in, the upload speeds jumped to 500 Kbps. My son connected again and said the picture was great and the box worked like a charm. The speed was still nowhere near what I would want it to be since 2 Mbps is the advertised speed, but I was happy with 500 Kbps since it was more than the Slingbox needed to operate.
If that were the end of the story, life would be grand, but as you probably have already guessed there's more to it. Today I get a call from Cablevision wanting to talk about my speed issues. My call was referred to them by one of the two technicians that I had spoken to. The technician tells me that there is a bandwidth throttle turned on for my account. He explains to me that anytime Cablevision sees continuous upload streams, depending on the current network usage they will turn a bandwidth throttle on to limit your upload speed. After the throttle was turned of I now had 1.5 Mbps upload speeds. The technician warns me that it may be turned on again if a continuous upload is identified.
I explained that I had installed a Slingbox device for my son to watch his DVR, and that when he is viewing TV there would be a continuous upload stream of between 256-300 Kbps. It was then that he began talking to me as if he were scolding a young child. Spouting out various phrases like:
- Our network and service is built to supply bandwidth to many customers and can not support continuous streams
- We only promise 2 Mbps as a burst speed not continuous
- In order to provide the best service for all we need to limit people using too many resources
I pointed out that based on this information I had just waisted $170 on a Slingbox that I would never be able to use. If bandwidth limits were imposed like this by every ISP, then the Slingbox is really a useless device that no one will ever be able to access. His response: "It's not our obligation to support any new invention or device that becomes available. Our goal is to provide the best service to all of our customers". I asked if all of this was documented in the terms of service. He said it was, but I find it to be rather vague. Of course they do say you can not run a server on their network, so I guess any ISP could define a Slingbox as a video server and tell you that you are breaking the terms of service.
He was not able to answer any of the following questions:
- Will a stream of 256 Kbps impose the limit?
- How long do you have to run a continuous upload stream before a limit is applied to your account?
- Why can't the limit be removed automatically once the upload stream stops.?
I guess he couldn't answer these because there is no answer. The Terms of Service have this unquantifiable statement under the section Examples of system or network security violations : Excessive use of bandwidth, that in Cablevision's sole opinion, goes above normal usage or goes beyond the limit allocated to the user.
Cablevisions sole opinion? What does that mean? If I'm uploading a 1GB file to a friends FTP server, is that a violation? If I'm uploading multiple large video files to You Tube? If my son watches an episode of "24" on the Slingbox and I send out 256 Kbps for 1 hour? Please quantify this for me.
I know that in no way shape of form is Slingbox to blame for this, but I definitely think they and every other manufacturer working on Video or file sharing applications should be concerned. ISP invoking these limits could put them out of business.
The epilogue of the story... I'm one of the lucky ones who has Verizon FIOS in my area and I've already started the process of switching over.... I better read the fine print on their Terms of Service.
16 comments:
Verizon FIOS is deffinately the way to go! I just got Fios a few months ago (15Mb down/2Mb up) and its been the best broadband service ever. My slingbox works at 400kbps over Verizon Wireless EVDO while on the road or at a friends house without internet access.
I think this story is helpful, but the title is unfair. It's not Slingbox buyers as a whole who should beware, it's consumers of your ISP. That ridiculous and hidden bandwidth restriction isn't something that just affects Slingbox streaming, and it certainly isn't any fault of the Slingbox. Also, to be clear, this isn't a problem that's universal to cable ISPs. My internet connection is via a cable provider the Slingbox has been working and streaming happily since the day I plugged it in.
Announcements
Important information regarding your Terms of Service
The following is an outline of changes to the Verizon Internet Access Service Terms of Service which are effective as of June 14, 2007. We have described these changes in general terms below and recommend that you review the Terms of Service to determine how these changes apply to you or your use of the Service. The Terms of Service can be accessed by clicking on the "Policies and Terms of Service" link at the bottom of any page of our Website. The Terms of Service, as revised, will govern your rights and obligations, and ours, with respect to your use of the Services we offer. Your continued use of the Service after the effective date of these changes will constitute your agreement to the changes, as set forth in Paragraph 6 of the Terms of Service.
Prohibition on Exceeding Applicable Bandwidth Usage Limitations: We have revised Section 3.7.1 to clarify that Verizon reserves the right to limit or restrict bandwidth usage or take other action to enforce usage limitations we may establish from time to time for the Service.
Use of multiple IP addresses: We have revised Section 3(m) of the Acceptable Use Policy to clarify that you can use more than one IP address if you have purchased multiple Static IP Addresses from Verizon.
This entry is unfair to your broadband provider. Consumers, naturally enough, want the moon, the sun, and the stars: infinite bandwidth at a fixed, very low cost. But bandwidth costs money! There's no way any ISP can even break even if everyone streams continuously. So, all ISPs do pretty much the same thing. They allow you to "burst" to high speeds, and since every user doesn't do this at the same moment, they can average out the traffic and make a small profit. But they cannot afford to have you use large amounts of capacity continuously. If you try to do that, they have no choice but to lower your rate to the point where you're paying your freight (or somewhere close to it). It's not their fault that they have to do this; after all, it's unfair to expect them to lose money on you. My advice: Pay for a "business" connection, which you're allowed to run up to the full capacity. You won't be throttled, and you'll be paying a fair price for the bandwidth you receive. Expecting to get $80/month of usage out of a $30/month Internet connection is unfair to the provider.
I like how the last guy talks about how much bandwidth costs.
Explain articles like this, then:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/26/127205&from=rss
If you don't work in the biz, don't tell others falsehoods. I have FiOS and while I have the 15/2 plan, I know the 15/15 is available and I know it's expensive, and it's expensive because they plan on you actually USING WHAT YOU PAY FOR. If a ISP cannot provide the bandwidth they are selling, they should sell less, and not advertise "burst" speeds. Cox clearly states you can only download 60gigabytes/month:
http://www.cox.com/policy/limitations.asp
That's good, that they tell you.
Again, the other guys are right, don't blame Slingbox for the deficiencies in your internet connection.
I use this free Slingbox recorder recorder here at mReplay. It's
caled mReplay Live. The quality is top quality for LAN connections,
and very decent for remote recordings. Their recorder also has a "QuickCropper" so you can edit the recordings.
www.mReplay.com/live
I use this free Slingbox recorder recorder here at mReplay. It's
caled mReplay Live. The quality is top quality for LAN connections,
and very decent for remote recordings. Their recorder also has a
"QuickCropper" so you can edit the recordings.
www.mReplay.com/live
I have the Verizon FIOS 15/15 plan. All is great UNTIL I plug my Slingbox into the router. When I'm on the road at various hotels, my Slingbox will stream fine for about 10 minutes, then it just freezes up. I have to close the Slingplayer, relaunch the program and log in as Administrator to kick my "frozen" self off the service. But the same problem will occur after about 10 min. It's odd that I can watch Slingbox at home using my LAN with no problem. Of course the internet is not involved here. I have called Slingbox and they state it's the Verizon router. I've called Verizon and they point the finger at Slingbox. All I want is to be able to use my gear. Right now, I can't. Anyone else have similar issues?
I have used Slingboxes for the past 3.5 yrs without any issue. Currently I stream my DirecTV boxes in Jersey to Pennsylvania where I work (I only have internet service and no TV service with Comcast). I have a SlingCatcher (that connects to two Slingboxes back in NJ)and it works at 1500kbps continuously. The quality of the image is excellent, like being where the DirecTV box is. I think there is a limit by some ISP's to cap their bandwidth and restrict "other" uses of their network. In a good month,I have used 160GB of the 250GB cap imposed by Comcast (their provide an usage meter to track usage) without any problems or calls form their police.
you should call slingbox support , they have tips for ways to improve you video steam. They log into your router and make port changes.
@brian This was a few years ago. The problem went away after switching to Verizon Fios. Thanks for the comment.
I have to say that Cablevision has been very good to me for speed. I get about 5 Upload and high as 35 Download for real. We should put the Slingbox in a trophy case
The logical solution (although the Sling box is acceptable if you had a different ISP provider) is to get DISH Network for your son so he can use the TV service for less money at college. They have 5 packages to choose from and free HD for life for qualifying customers. I know because I have DISH and work there.
This really isn't about Slingbox. This is about using any such device or streaming anything out over a consumer Internet connection. ALL cable Internet providers throttle speeds. In fact some throttle based on monitoring inbound speeds on the receiving end, even with business class circuits. Because the connection is shared and they have finite total bandwidth available in the neighborhood it is divided up amongst all the subscribers. Now, if the throttled speed is still fast enough for a device like the Slingbox to operate properly you're in luck. Some will be more strict about this than others. And the system load in your area makes a difference.
DSL Internet on the other hand does not work this way. Because DSL is not shared you have access to all of the bandwidth all of the time. This is where most of the cable versus DSL debate comes from. They generally don't offer nor advertise burst speeds. However, most DSL providers also have items in their terms of service prohibiting the use of servers. They also, like most cable providers, have a maximum total data usage per billing cycle. Fiber to the home service is similar to DSL but as this is currently being rolled out the way it functions is subject to change moving forward. With outbound speeds of DSL typically less than that of cable you're of course more limited in quality for something like the Slingbox over such circuits. To avoid these issues a business class circuit is required. But be careful because even then throttling may occur depending on the type of service, particularly cable. Check the terms of service carefully. Often servers such as a web server are prohibited while things like a Slingbox or a private FTP server are permitted.
The cable operators should be REQUIRED to provide synchronous upload (speeds that match downloads) with NO throttling (except monthly caps) as a condition for their franchise licenses. The only exceptions should be in emergency situations and for operators who have cables running from thheir neighborhood head-end (to the customer) that are too old to handle synchronous without slowing the fastest available download speed below 3Mbps. But unfortunately, the people over 40 are mostly tech idiots and the people under 40 don't know what they can't find on Google and so we're screwed by some real a-holes running the notoriously corrupt cable industry.
Hmmmm. I have verizon fios home services throughout package. There is a app mobile fios that will deliver what you pay for at your home and its free "I hope"? You have to be near a wifi to get the data stream. Most wifi public if busy is extremely slow and I wonder if the fios app will be slumbering to play a good stream if its buffering i just turn anything off cant stand that, My question is you still have to be near a wifi with slingbox? yes? but will it perform better? with the buffering Starbucks direct mobile fios way? ? ? i helped you please help me!
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